Randolph - Scots Knight

[blackfly]

Thomas Randolph, Earl of Moray
Commanded the scots vanguard / leftwing at Bannockburn

www.madponies.net/pub/rebellion/randolph.pdf

[TeutonicTexan]

Is this the same Thomas Randolph...would seem to be based on the description at Edinburgh castle:



Ran accross this while looking into the history of some of the leaders. It has the same three cusions (though arranged differently), but looks to be Or instead of Argent and a flory-counter flory double tressure. I certainly don't know which is right, but thought I'd point out a difference.

[blackfly]

Yeah, I saw that too, in my research to make the one above. I never did figure out the or/argent deal- I think the seal above, though it mentions the actions of 1313 was made much later. --edit-- see below for confirmation that Or is the modern usage.

This roll ( www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/mitchell/scots.html ) Lists the Randolph-Moray earldom as:

Argent, three cushions lozengewise within a double tressure flory counter-flory Gules

So by that I'm still missing the flory-counter flory, but I know the one that I originally read only said a double tressure- no mention of the f.c.f. Could have been an author's omission, or maybe it evolved as the fortunes of family changed?


In "Lacunar Basilicae Sancti Macarii Aberdonesis" by William Duguid Geddes, Peter Duguid - 1888., I found confirmation that Or is the modern metal, and it matches the Scottish Heraldry link above- confirming the flory counter flory... at least later on, and it sounds like earlier too, so I might have messed up the tressure.

"The Earl Of Moray.
Argent three cushions gules with the royal tressure.
Three cusions or pillows were the paternal arms of Randolph or Ranulph, which became the feudal arms of the Earldom of Moray. On the seal of Thomas Randolph (1280) there are three cusions without a tressure.

Thomas Randolph Earl of Moray Lord of Annandale and Man nephew of Robert Bruce was the first of his family who was allowed to place the double tressure round his paternal figures (Nisbet ii 69). In 1292 the seal of Thomas Ranulph, afterwards first Earl of Moray, was "On a shield three pillows" and Froissart states that he bore: "Argent a trois oreilles de guelles" (Stodart ii 18). The Regent changed the pillows to cushions by adding tassels in or about 1330. In the Armorial de Gelre Count de Morref bears Argent three cushions tasseled within a double tressure flory counter flory with sixteen fleurs de lis gules.

At the period of the ceiling the earldom of Moray was held by James Stewart natural son of James IV and at his death in 1544 it lapsed to the Crown. Laing describes his seal "Quarterly first and fourth three cushions within a double tressure flowered and counterflowered for Moray second and third Scotland surmounted with a bend sinister".( i 135 No 807).
Sir David Lindsay gives the coat of Randolph Earl of Moray with the field or and that of Dunbar Earl of Moray with the field argent and in the quartered coats of Stewart and Douglas Earls of Moray he makes the field argent. Nisbet blazons the field argent (i 180). By modern usage it is borne or."

As far as the cushion arrangement goes, from what I've read the layout is not specified, and in that case is up to the herald. For a rectangular flag, 3 in line would be common (as I did). The arrangement on the above images would be how I'd do it on a heater shield, or square flag. --Thats another post I need to make really, but have been slacking on redoing all the flag files. Really these should all be square for knight's banners. :/ Rectangular flags are not really period correct from what I have found.

Anyway, I'm only a rank amateur at this.. caveat emptor.

[TeutonicTexan]

Thanks for that link BF!!

I was hoping there was a scottish roll listing somewhere like Brian Timms' site with all the English arms. That will be very helpful!

Interesting that they could just change their arms and add tassels to his pillows (to become cushions)...I wonder if that has some meaning.

I think with the information available on early arms, we probably are going to have to be happy with "a good approximation". When in doubt, I almost always err to the side of whatever looks best. Once its on the table it's just gotta look cool.